Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. Maybe like those methyl things we were telling you about with the rats. Yeah. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. JAD: Well, its offensive. Live shows were first offered in 2008. More of this particular protein. That's how I've always looked at it. CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Probably racist.]. LULU: And were trying to think about how do we keep it the same in a lot of ways, but also how do we let it grow into something beyond what it was originally built to be. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. CARL ZIMMER: He's 22, 23, and he already had this reputation for being amazing at keeping animals alive, that otherwise would just die. Anyways, God bless you. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Yeah, lets read.]. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control.". JAD: I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. Turning down a job that they'd offered him. Or is it? SAM KEAN: And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. He was miserable to look at. It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. But here's what I did not know about DNA. And they had more. ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. PAT: She did. That doesn't matter. A little village? And to believe anything else, that's naive. ", SAM KEAN: "They can respond to the environment.". And then, Michael just launched into this thing. And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". You know? PEJK MALINOVSKI: This is the verkalix church parish record. I said, "This will be the last one. PAT: That's really impressive. It's against the rules. They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside That is the time where the sperms are developing. So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? Listen Jan 20, 2023 Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? Still, that's a burden that, he's carrying a big burden there. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." Yes. PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". I mean, I'm married to a Black man. PAT: And she told Barbara, "There's something you need to know about this baby.". Yeah. I'm in public health. OLOV BYGREN: It was very interesting discovery. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. CARL ZIMMER: Well, there was an expert on reptiles named G. Kingsley Noble. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Okay, I'm here. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. JAD: [expletive] That was awesome. Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. With NPR's Rough Translation. OLOV BYGREN: Something happens on the molecular level. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. JAD: Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. Well, yep, that is so true. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. Like. Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. ROBERT: What a name, you've got to like this guy. That was amazing. That's 9, 10, 11. Here's what Olov says he found in the data. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. Welcome to the Grammys of government-funded research. More information about Sloan at. He is passionate about scholarly writing, World History, and Political sciences. I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. Brain disease. If . And they had more. And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. After I've gotten to know so many of the women. Stretching got into the baby. JAD: He works at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden where he studies population data. JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. Looking for patterns in cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, and such. VERONICA ZIMMER: My name is Veronica Zimmer. To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. ROBERT: I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. ROBERT: And to believe anything else, that's naive. This week The Science Show introduces Radiolab from WNYC in New York City. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. So we did stop. JAD: So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. You know, inside these cells, in the center, coiled up in little spools, is the DNA. PAT: This, of course, is Destiny. He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Heart disease. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. JAD: And then, Michael just launched into this thing. So, somehow, by some chemical mechanism, starving grandpa, back when he was about 9 to 12 years old, turned out to be a good thing. Just don't have any more children because, at that point, I didn't really know any of them. JAD: And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was JAD: Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. JAD: We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. LATIF: Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. He had one remaining midwife toad. We went to the foster home and went in. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information. Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? JAD: Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. JAD: In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" Well, I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and hed sterilize people as well. And if you were eating a whole lot between 9 and 12, one-quarter. ROBERT: I think that makes a lot of sense. JAD: Michael and Frances looked inside the brains of these rats and what they saw was that the rats who had been licked a lot as babies, they had more stuff in their head. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. They decided to explore this question, They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". The kingdom archive. Radiolab is on YouTube! Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. JAD: So heres the backstory. Look, in the end, what do I know? So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. OLOV BYGREN: The results are quite obvious. Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. JAD: But that you supposedly can't get to. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. And so, her name is Kalia. JAD: Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. Test the outer edges of what you think you know. So yeah, she keeps me busy. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. The lady knew why we were there. I wonder how much you believe in it. CARL ZIMMER: And he makes a very careful study of this hand. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." Is it a big town? Since birth. One-fourth? Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. Radiolab is a radio program broadcast on public radio stations in the United States, and a podcast available internationally, both produced by WNYC.Hosted by Jad Abumrad, Latif Nasser and Lulu Miller, each episode focuses on a topic of a scientific and philosophical nature, through stories, interviews, and thought experiments.. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. Okay, all right, this is interesting. Let me say this again. It was this struggle for a few years. JAD: Thanks to Frances Champagne and Michael Meany and Sam Kean, who writes about Paul Kammerer in his book, The Violinist's Thumb. Peanut butter, there we go. And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. Take a look, explore and subscribe! PAT: She actually emailed me afterwards and adjusted that number down a couple hundred. You got your good parents and your bad parents. It takes a while. So heres the backstory. ROBERT: And then the next one after that. Thank you so much for your interest in Radiolab. Each stone represents a radioisotope by means of a. Whole lifetime of stretching. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: At once and we're watching 40 litters at a time. MICHAEL MEANEY: I was an undergraduate student. PAT: Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. I mean, he hates water. Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. You are not God. ROBERT: Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. And one of them is called the thyroid system. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. I'm almost done. These are women who love their children, who sought help. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: Well, I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and hed sterilize people as well. More what kind of stuff? JAD: We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? JAD: Its an idea thats been kicking around for me since my kids were born. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: She's offering $200. We spay them. Wow. That kind of 30 years? And again, Barbara thinks, "Come on, but if this little girl is here, she should be with her brother and sister. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. A lot of times that's not the case. PAT: A year later, she gets another call. This great. No, she was an oops kid. BARBARA HARRIS: It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. PAT: So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. And he would basically turn the heat way, way up in these aquariums until they had to go underwater. CARL ZIMMER: I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. So that's fun. I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? PEJK MALINOVSKI: He was an idiot. 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