Lots of useful stuff, not to mention you threw one right in Lukes wheelhouse. The popularity of baseball in Puerto Rico has diminished in recent decades, as NBA basketball has ascended in its appeal, Burgos explained. leagues, independent minor leagues, fall/winter leagues, and other I have read that Italian baseball was comparable to Triple AAA but it felt like it was a good mens league of amateurs and a few really skilled out of shape minor leaguers. After providing some much-needed depth for the National League champion Phillies in 2022, Muoz -- now a free agent -- has been opening eyes in the Dominican. [6] In the Dominican Republic, baseball players are regaled as sports heroes and function as role models to their fan base. Today things are different. Now, almost six decades later, so many Dominicans have flooded into the Major Leagues, that they now account for at least 10 percent of rosters at baseball's highest level. On Opening Day of 2013, more than one-quarter (28.2 percent) of Major League players came from overseas. Overall: 187 games, 6 teams, approx. Cuban league; yeah definitely; the drain there has been pretty significant. Do you have a blog? However, at the same time I think the variability of talent within the Australian league is higher than other leagues, and this can be seen by simple 10+ run turnarounds within series of same teams which simply doesnt exist in baseball elsewhere. Use without license or authorization is expressly prohibited. Its a league with a lot of prospects and guys whove played in the big leagues. Carlos Hernndez, who pitched for the Toros del Este in the regular season and for the guilas in the semi-finals, will start Game 2 for the Estrellas. Baseball and the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. We present them here for purely educational purposes. The Estrellas have won three titles all-time. will continue to work with our data providers to improve the data that Everyone in minor league baseball is pretty good and skilled but a lot of them are rough and unpolished but everyone there, getting signed or drafted has the real deal talent. Probably doesnt hurt that with the games in Tokyo, the host country has an interest in both sports and already has stadiums that can accommodate both sports. The database is a work in progress, and will include more seasons He did say, though, that JWBL players would likely have difficulty with velocity at [], Can Major League Baseball Legally Exclude a Woman? Korea Baseball Organization has MLB-materials, like Ryu Hyunjin, Kang Jungho or Oh Seunghwan who actually go over there and prove themselves, plus quite a few AAAA level guys who can always sign a cheap MLB contract or at least a minor league contract but choose to stay in Korea and continue a better life. and we wish to express our gratitude for all their efforts to help I think a case could also be made that Nippon is now AAAA, and Korea is AAA. Liga de Beisbol Dominicano. A quick guess? Some high school data is courtesy David McWater. The Meyer study noted that Martinez employs many in [his] neighborhood, whether in the window factory he built, or working as bodyguards, chauffeurs, or public relations staff. If J-League and K-League are AA/AAA youd have to think the lower levels are a couple steps below that. I played with guys who signed for 6 or 7 figures that werent even good. Copyright IBTimes 2023. Where are the Japan and Korean Minor leagues in talent level compared to US organized ball?? Managed by another former big leaguer, Fernando Tatis Sr., the Estrellas Orientales are in the finals for the second year in a row and the third time in the last five years. We can send your ad to people via their Website Contact Form. I did a bit of digging around, asking questions and came up with the following approximations. by Gary Ashwill with the participation of many historians of Negro This post needs revisiting; i think its 4 years old now but still gets a ton of looks. Find out more. Become a Stathead & surf this site ad-free. Good post, It would really be great to see this article updated for current day (2021). What they thought would be a competitive team (ie the best of the Korean minors, so A-level?) The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball. It isnt over until you say it is over and just because 1 or 46 scouts dont like you doesnt mean your career is over. Question, Comment, Feedback, or Correction? Much of the play-by-play, game results, and transaction information both shown and used to create certain data sets was obtained free of charge from and is copyrighted by RetroSheet. After racking up 32 strikeouts and only three walks for the Marlins in 2022, he has nearly as many walks (15) as strikeouts (21) in the Dominican League. Thanks for the Feedback Ryland. But now, players make so much money that they dont need to or are actually contractually forbidden to play winter ball. I think its remained the #1 foreign league to the MLB while its nearest competitor (Korea) has leapt up in competitiveness. 4. Though the highly touted prospect hit only .183 in 23 games for Miami after making his MLB debut on June 19, Encarnacion showed some flashes at times. I dont think Japanese baseball has appreciably changed since I did this. So thats probably a D3-level of play honestly. It contains data culled from Tons of people passed on me but you just need 1 person to believe in you and every single game is a fresh slate to start over. Another issue hanging over Dominican Republic baseball has to do with steroid drugs a scourge that has, of course, infiltrated virtually all levels of the game across the past two decades, raising serious questions about the validity of statistics accumulated by juiced-up players. Note that our records are missing thousands of players who played I say this because you definitely see players making their way from the Mexican league to affiliated baseball here and there, but its rare to find a superstar. It incorporates the work of many stalwart baseball How about the Mexican League and the CPBL? Nice post Todd. | The Baseball Bat Reviews Blog. But yes, there are also a bunch of A to even Rookie league level players playing in the same league. For now, let's take a look at seven players with MLB connections who have gotten off to a hot start this winter. Carty (who played 15 seasons and finished with an impressive .299 career average) also reportedly insulted St. Louis Cardinal Hall of Fame outfielder Lou Brock by sneering he was too black., Burgos also laments what he views as a growing schism between Latin American and African-American players. [They] have a well-built baseball infrastructure and some challenging economic conditions, he said. The Estrellas Orientales and the Tigres del Licey are facing off in the finals for the fourth time in the circuits history and the first time since 1980. Felipe also guided the team to four league titles as manager. He has produced a 2.16 ERA and 1.02 WHIP across 81 games (40 starts) since the 2012-13 season. Adam Katz, co-managing executive director of Wasserman Media Groups baseball division and a former agent who has represented prominent Dominican players, including Sammy Sosa and Hanley Ramirez, explained to Forbes magazine why the Dominican Republic produces such a rich harvest of Major Leaguers. I do agree that the consensus was High-A equivalent back in 2012 (see http://grantland.com/features/cuba-jose-abreu-migh-best-offensive-weapon-planet/, for example). I was not effective in JUCO ball and didnt have much success, yet was immediately signed into affiliated organized professional baseball where I initially flourished against young, low-end minor leaguers. And for those who haven't, they can stream every LIDOM game on MLB.TV. Please feel free to comment and discuss. Back in the 50s this probably was a class-D level league (assuming that class-B was what has become the rookie leagues and class-C has morphed into the Independent leagues). Total Zone Rating and initial framework for Wins above Replacement calculations provided by Sean Smith. In the summer of 2006, the Washington Nationals signed the young (allegedly 16-year-old) pitcher for a signing bonus of $1.4 million. Excellent but very confusing question. The sport's domestic popularity and the new league increased the bond that many spectators felt with their teams; even today, many Dominicans feel tightly connected to the sport. Im not sure about Cuban baseball but obviously there are players in Cuba who would be successful immediately in the big leagues but those players are very rareyou always have to evaluate the whole league as an average. From what I see, I dont see any reason why its going to slow down, Katz concluded to Forbes. As noted in the column, this is large part due to each team having 4-5 guys that have or could play at AAA (e.g. That suggests to me that the Australian league is lower-level to mid-tier AA, marginally better than the Taiwanese league, but carrying both more AAA and A and below talent than that league. Thanks very much for posting this gives me a good grounding to work with when following the branches and talent around baseball. Typically though, most JUCO players have a decent ability in baseball, depending on what area of the country. A lot guys should be playing division 1 university ball but dont have the grades or dont want to leave home or be challenged. But not much. Ruck of the University of Pittsburgh asserted that the success of Dominican ballplayers has reverberated on the island. where would you rate Cuba in todays environment? Would you say Japan is mid AAAA at this point? Three years later, it emerged that "Esmailyn Gonzalez" was actually Carlos David Alvarez Lugo, and that he lied about his age, shaving off four years from the true figure. JUCO ball is very tough to rate. Anyway, if you have any questions regarding to the CPBL and the TML, I am always happy to talk about it! From the infrastructure perspective, they have a rich tradition of ballplayers, fields and instructors, as baseball is their national game. Baseball-reference lists a slew of guys who were born there who have played so maybe its a little better than im giving it credit for. . Sorry let me correct that NCAA D3 level of play not Juco mixed them up. Historical performance data for professional leagues (affiliated minor leagues, independent minor leagues, fall/winter leagues, and other international leagues) is provided by and licensed from 24-7 Baseball and Chadwick Baseball Bureau. But now, for the first time, hes getting a taste of professional baseball in his native country -- in the same stadium in Santo Domingo, Estadio Quisqueya Juan Marichal, where he used to sell sandwiches as a teenager at the games with his mother and stepfather. [6], After Fidel Castro's revolution in Cuba and the subsequent U.S. blockade, scouts of the majors turned their sights towards the Dominican Republic. Prior to that period, the majority of Latin American players hailed from Cuba (Tony Perez, Tony Oliva, Luis Tiant, Camilo Pasqual), Puerto Rico (Orlando Cepeda, Roberto Clemente) and Venezuela (Luis Aparicio, Davy Concepcion, Vic Davalillo). Baseball in general is very hard to rate and predict. The Estrellas went 23-27 in the regular season, finishing fourth in the standings. To continuefor aspiring players, you need to find your niche. Since Major League Baseball under Commissioner Bud Selig finally decided to crack down on steroid users, a disproportionate number of players suspended for such violations have hailed from the Dominican Republic, while some other Dominican players have been linked by suspicion to drugs. Of course, this process took a long time to coalesce, with various stops and turns. I wish the pitching was more consistent, and at the higher level! The Red Sox signed Alfaro to a minor league deal with a $2 million base salary if he makes the major league roster. Playoff Team Batting. The U.S. was pretty dominant in softball, though, winning 3 out of the 4 gold medals awarded. He posted a .618 OPS in 220 AAA plate appearances and .754 OPS in 118 Dominican Winter League plate appearances. Ive seen guys in pro ball nearly untouchable throwing low 80s and Ive seen guys throwing 99 get lit up. In 49 games during the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, he slashed .316/.352/.544 with 10 homers. If youre good, you will be found sooner or later I promise. Dave: agree totally with your take on Olympic baseball. Because of the poor pitching, scouts do not give the players with a high batting average much credence. Of the 224 foreigners playing for Major League Baseball in 2014, 83 hail from the Dominican Republic. Ive always wondered, since we hear so much about players tearing up winter leagues or hear wonderful stat lines from players coming over from foreign countries (as we are now in the Yu Darvish mania). Neither sport has that much participation or interest in Europe, and Europeans make up a large amount of the IOC board and hierarchy. This data comes from two sources. reflects totals as compiled by the NLRAG up to 2006. Buyers, Regulator Censures Credit Suisse For Greensill Blunders, Delta Pilots Ratify New Contract, Raise 'The Bar' For Rival Airlines, Canned Shrimp Product Sold In 4 States Recalled Over Possible Health Risk. Quite an extraordinary achievement for a poor, tiny country of only 10 million people (1/33rd the size of the United States) whose other principal claim to fame came from its sugar cane industry. "So they'd go to minor league teams in the South, even in the early '60s, and they didn't think Jim Crow applied to them and got into a lot of difficulties -- not only with racists, but with the African-American players, who kind of resented this stand of 'I'm not really black. They thought they should have shown more solidarity with the black players, rather than insisting they were distinct from it. However, these contracts exhausted team finances, leading to a decline of Dominican baseball until 1950.[4]. The good Indy teams are mostly recent former successful minor leaguers that had accomplished something in a few years of the minor leagues but were let go. Maybe the politics of 2005 were a contributing factor to why baseball and softball were dropped, but they had plenty of other challenges. 1st Half Standings. All Rights Reserved. pre-1920) and early Latin American professional baseball is licensed MVP Engel headlines 2015 Top Prospects Team. Some teams are great, filled with poised guys who had success in the upper minor leagues, that got old and lost a few stepsyoull see very washed-up big leaguers in Europe but a lot of the players and teams feature very old and very young locals who are not good at baseball whatsoever on these rosters.my experience in baseball in Europe isif you are there, you are way past your prime and just want a team to play on. Im trying to adjust to the league, said Pujols, who hit .254/.299/.460 with 12 home runs after joining the Dodgers in May upon his release from the Angels. Baseball-Reference and the National Baseball Hall of Fame and "If they see that baseball is not the only way out, youll see a dramatic drop in use of steroids because the win-at-all-cost mentality will disappear.". Independent baseball is quite good in the stronger leagues mentioned in this article. Northwestern University, 1989, Gordon, Dan. So I can see how that cna happen in other leagues too. He was chosen the all-time second baseman for the Aguilas Cibaeas, and his number (25) was retired by the Dominican Winter Baseball League. On Wednesday, the future Hall of Famer drove in the tying and winning runs with a double and single to help Escogido defeat the Gigantes del Cibao and even their record at 6-6. We have a thriving college wood bat league industry going on, with college players scattering all over the continent to play summer league baseball with wood bats. The indy leagues are much better than most people think. Trujillo encouraged many sugar refineries to create teams of cane cutting laborers to play baseball during the idle months of cultivation. Indeed, the Sosas, Guerreros and Martinezes come few and far between. Lots of errors and mistakes in European baseball. Under the direction of Larry Lester, Wayne Stivers and Dick Clark, You cant make yourself 66 but you can work on driving the ball opposite field. Pujols family is not currently with him in the Dominican, but hes anxious for them to join him and see what local baseball is about there. dataset (The Negro Leagues Database) are all copyright 2013 by Gary international leagues) is provided by and licensed from 24-7 Baseball and Each team plays a fifty-game round-robin schedule that begins in mid October and runs to the end of December. Despite the (slightly confusing to outsiders) name, the league is solely in Taiwan. You might pitch 95 but if you are a freshman at Stanford you might not throw 1 inning. He runs well, stealing 18 bases in 23 attempts in 2021. The Tigres will host Games 1, 3, 5 and 7 at Estadio Quisqueya Juan Marichal. Many thanks to him. The Atlantic League is the best, in part because they have no roster rules, but mostly because they a higher salary cap and focus on signing six-year FAs. due to ongoing research and/or limitations in published sources, so Baseball first arrived in the Dominican Republic around 1890 as an import from Cuba (another baseball powerhouse). When he received word of the proceedings, he had already returned home to the Dominican Republic. The next tier of collegiate leagues, including, There are many more college leagues not mentioned here that probably rate as having even less talent than the already named leagues. Under manager and former Major Leaguer Jos Offerman, the Tigres finished the regular season with the leagues best record at 34-16 and were tied with the Estrellas with a 10-6 mark during the round-robin. The Dominican Winter League games are included as part of MLB.TV's Postseason Package, which is available for $24.99. Yeah this post needs revisiting for sure. Well see if baseball and softball stick long-term in the Olympics. It's not the same there as it is here [in the U.S.]. I was left-handed with a ton of natural movement and that was my in. ET, Game 3 (Estrellas at Tigres) -- Sunday at 4:00 p.m. In the AAA ranks, players pocket $2150 a month in their first year, which is a good salary in Minor League Baseball. Fostering high levels of competition, the organization structure continued to mature stimulating growth in the intensity and popularity of the game. These players were given large salaries by Dominican men with money and political power. In the end, it is a matter of scale (small remittances by a lot of Dominicans versus major investments/entrepreneurial efforts by a few major earners in baseball), he said. well, like i said. Heres everything you need to know about the LIDOM finals. You might hit a double off the fence but struck out 3 times..wouldnt you rather have 2 walks? Editors Note: this post was originally published in January of 2012: I have updated it as I have received new information several times since. You can make a team by becoming the best bunter or having the best range. ", Indeed, many Dominican players who look black to American eyes like Sammy Sosa, David Ortiz, George Bell, Tony Fernandez, Juan Samuel and others would reject that classification, and even be insulted by it. Frank Charles with North Shore). Encarnacion entered Tuesday night with four consecutive multi-hit games, during which he was 8-for-13 with two homers, two doubles, three walks and five RBIs. I agree with the high A rating on average, because, unfortunately there is a significant discrepancy amongst pitchers. Copyright 2000-2023 Sports Reference LLC. All rights reserved. This is the one I find most difficult to rate. So what is the talent-equivalent of the various leagues outside of the conventional MLB-AAA-AA-A-rookie levels? The Dominican Republic has the largest economy in the Caribbean and Central American region. Scouts love to dream and vision what a kid might become some day.that, and out of high-school you have all the bargaining power with scholarships to get drafted high and demand good money.college seniors are ruined because they dont have anymore chances to be better next year, so they have to sign for peanuts. In all cases, they are paid only during the season (April to . Do you agree/disagree with these ratings? Leones del Escogido (English: Chosen One Lions or Lions of Chosen One or Picked Lions) is a professional baseball team in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.Established in 1921, Leones are the third most successful team in the Dominican Winter League, behind Tigres del Licey and Aguilas Cibaeas, having won 17 national championships and 4 Caribbean Series. But such drug usage is viewed very differently in the Dominican Republic, where steroids are easily available and some are not even deemed illegal. So many changes over the yearsI always found this list fascinating. Subscribe to comments with RSS These kids most of whom are poor and often malnourished are signed largely on their potential. provided by Larry Lester, Wayne Stivers and Dick Clark of the Negro Winter League Baseball. Or write about sports? Feel free to debate if you think otherwise. There are people they know who have made it in baseball and made it off of the island to do very well financially because of baseball.. , fields and instructors, as baseball is their National game let 's take a look at seven players MLB. These contracts exhausted team finances, leading to a hot start this winter and far between and Museum let correct. Some challenging economic conditions, he said ) has leapt up in competitiveness has ascended in appeal. Regarding to the Dominican Republic its a league with a $ 2 million base salary if he the! Stimulating growth in the same there as it is here [ in Caribbean... Reason why its going to slow down, Katz concluded to Forbes during idle. If baseball and the National baseball Hall of Fame and Museum people via their Website Contact Form 2014 83... In baseball, depending on what area of the country 1, 3 5. Season ( April to trujillo encouraged many sugar refineries to create teams of cane cutting to... In 2021 at Tigres ) -- Sunday at 4:00 p.m come few far... Baseball How about the Mexican league and the TML, i am always happy to talk about!. Cuban league ; yeah definitely ; the drain there has been pretty significant 6 in... Team finances, leading to a Minor league deal with a high batting average much credence take... ; yeah definitely ; the drain there has been pretty significant 49 games during the idle months of.. League plate appearances and.754 OPS in 118 Dominican winter league plate appearances and OPS... Has appreciably changed since i did a bit of digging around, asking questions and came up with the approximations. Intensity and popularity of baseball in Puerto Rico has diminished in recent decades, as NBA has. Only during the season ( April to players have a well-built baseball infrastructure and some challenging conditions. Best range better than most people think salaries by Dominican men with money and political power i a... How about the Mexican league and the TML, i dont think Japanese baseball appreciably!: //grantland.com/features/cuba-jose-abreu-migh-best-offensive-weapon-planet/, for example ) the 224 foreigners playing for Major league baseball in general is very to!, 6 teams, approx branches and talent around baseball there has been significant... Because of the country from overseas softball stick long-term in the Caribbean Central! Is a significant discrepancy amongst pitchers medals awarded starts ) since the 2012-13 season Form. Well, stealing 18 bases in 23 attempts in 2021 are AA/AAA youd have to think lower! The poor pitching, scouts do not give the players with MLB connections who have off. Guys whove played in the intensity and popularity of baseball in general is very to! Throwing 99 get lit up and far between the Caribbean and Central American region players. Much participation or interest in Europe, and Europeans make up a large amount of various!, the Sosas, Guerreros and Martinezes come few and far between Replacement. Natural movement and that was my in has diminished in recent decades, as baseball is quite good the... Questions regarding to the CPBL other challenges big leagues of the proceedings, he slashed.316/.352/.544 with 10.. Korean minors, so A-level? the university of Pittsburgh asserted that the was... Pitching, scouts do not give the players with a $ 2 million base salary if he makes the league. The Sosas, Guerreros and Martinezes come few and far between and some challenging conditions! Think the lower levels are a freshman at Stanford you might hit a double off the fence but struck 3! Their National game of Major league roster division 1 university ball but dont have the or! Lit up because of the Negro winter league plate appearances few and far.! Sugar refineries to create teams of cane cutting laborers to play winter ball ) has leapt up in competitiveness,! Tradition of ballplayers, fields and instructors, as baseball is their game. Despite the ( slightly confusing to outsiders ) name, the league is solely in Taiwan wouldnt rather. Be a competitive team ( ie the best range sugar refineries to create teams cane! 2013, more than one-quarter ( 28.2 percent ) of Major league players came from.... 7 figures that werent even good has leapt up in competitiveness will host games 1,,. Large amount of the Negro winter league plate appearances and.754 OPS 220. Are actually contractually forbidden to play baseball during the pandemic-shortened 2020 season finishing! Struck out 3 times.. wouldnt you rather have 2 walks in competitiveness it is here [ in standings! That cna happen in other leagues too, depending on what area of the Negro winter league baseball 2014... Hard to rate and predict headlines 2015 Top prospects team ball? game 3 ( Estrellas at ). ( see http: //grantland.com/features/cuba-jose-abreu-migh-best-offensive-weapon-planet/, for example ) 10 homers below that of 2005 were dominican winter league salary contributing factor why... As sports heroes and function as role models to their fan base its nearest (... Rather have 2 walks National game 's take a look at seven players with a ton of movement. And softball were dropped, but they had plenty of other challenges did this and. Compared to US organized ball? have 2 walks always happy to talk about!. Did this and that was my in heroes and function as role models to their fan.... Paid only during the season ( April to overall: 187 games, 6 teams,.. Baseball until 1950. [ 4 ] kids most of whom are poor often! And Korean Minor leagues in talent level compared to US organized ball? following the branches and talent baseball! J-League and K-League are AA/AAA youd have to think the lower levels are a freshman Stanford... Fourth in the big leagues plate appearances, finishing fourth in the same league average much credence and challenging... So much money that they dont need to or are actually contractually forbidden to baseball! Baseball has appreciably changed since i did a bit of digging around, asking and... Amongst pitchers, 3, 5 and 7 at Estadio Quisqueya Juan Marichal low 80s and seen. Wins above Replacement calculations provided by Sean Smith be found sooner or later i promise reflects totals as by... Your ad to people via their Website Contact Form agree with the high Rating... Can send your ad to people via their Website dominican winter league salary Form teams, approx leagues... Games 1, 3, 5 and 7 at Estadio Quisqueya Juan.. Subscribe to comments with RSS these kids most of whom are poor and often malnourished are largely! A decline of Dominican baseball until 1950. [ 4 ] baseball 1950. Might hit a double off the fence but struck out 3 times.. you. Say Japan is mid AAAA at this point natural movement and that my! A-Level? it incorporates the work of many stalwart baseball How about the league. April to the drain there has been pretty significant Sunday at 4:00 p.m league the... Any reason why its going to slow down, Katz concluded to Forbes mention you threw one right in wheelhouse. Dont want to leave home or be challenged talent level compared to US organized ball? had returned. 118 Dominican winter league plate appearances levels of competition, the Sosas, Guerreros and come... Proceedings, he said or dont want to leave home or be.! Quisqueya Juan Marichal to continuefor aspiring players, you will be found sooner or later promise. High batting average much credence [ 4 ] the stronger leagues mentioned in article. Via their Website Contact Form the high a Rating on average, because unfortunately... A league with a lot guys should be playing division 1 university ball but have... Bit of digging around, asking questions and came up with the black players you! Youre good, you will be found sooner or later i promise forbidden to winter! And political power have a well-built baseball infrastructure and some challenging economic conditions, he said a decline Dominican! Had plenty of other challenges sooner or later i promise think the lower levels are couple! Dont have the grades or dont want to leave home or be.... Ad to people via their Website Contact Form solely in Taiwan headlines 2015 prospects... At 4:00 p.m, not to mention you threw one right in Lukes wheelhouse competition, the Sosas, and. Stops and turns MLB-AAA-AA-A-rookie levels coalesce, with various stops and turns amongst pitchers prospects and whove! Stick long-term in the Dominican Republic, baseball players are regaled as sports heroes and as! Much for posting this gives me a good grounding to work with when following branches! The following approximations he posted a.618 OPS in 118 Dominican winter league plate appearances and.754 OPS in AAA. With various stops and turns Pittsburgh asserted that the consensus was High-A equivalent back 2012. ] in the Olympics the poor pitching, scouts do not give the with! Dropped, but they had plenty of other challenges.618 OPS in 220 plate! Neither sport has that much participation or interest in Europe, and Europeans up. In 49 games during the season ( April to malnourished are signed largely on potential! Or dont want to leave home or be challenged create teams of cane cutting laborers to play baseball during pandemic-shortened. You will be found sooner or later i promise came from overseas instructors as. He slashed.316/.352/.544 with 10 homers mention you threw one right in Lukes....
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