These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? Have you ever said anything nasty to somebody else on the ground or anywhere? Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). Even if he was previously allowed in the airspace, once told to get out, he has to go, no debate and certainly no defiance. This guys ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern. If you do not, then you might face losing your certificate, which isnt what anybody wants. | Busted Bravo Airspace VASAviation - 519K subscribers Join Subscribe 9.7K 728K views 2 years ago Date: 20/JUN/2020 Your support is really. That's no cause to kill him. Pilot deviation is a serious incident, and there can be lots of different outcomes depending on the exact situation. If an air traffic controller has determined that the actions of a pilot have affected the safety of operation, then it is the controllers responsibility to notify the flight crew as soon as it is practical to do so. He's going to find it hard for anyone to swallow his excuses. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. N731NR Aircraft Registration Aircraft Summary Summary 1980 CESSNA P210N Fixed wing single engine (6 seats / 1 engine) Owner WIFE APPROVED LLC TORRANCE , CA, US Airworthiness Class Standard/Normal Serial Number P21000509 Engine CONT MOTOR TSIO-520 SER (Reciprocating) Horsepower: 300 Weight Less than 12,500lbs Speed 141mph Mode S Code My local airport is RDU. This guy is a class-one "all about me" narcissist who makes GA pilots look bad. His license should be permanently revoked. U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration 800 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20591 1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322) Everything is on tape. See more about our ethics policies here. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. This letter acknowledges receipt of your FOIA request dated May 27, 2020, regarding any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions, or FSDO records, regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. Id. How hard would it be to just clear him through? Even the simplest of deviations can make the difference between life and death, which is why it is so important to stick to the rules. Attached is the letter in response to your above mentioned FOIA request. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language.". . N1NR answers back that "he's flying". The likelihood of an actual air collision is low due to the training of "most" pilots, but you don't need a guy like this. https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa-records-for-n731nr-97015/, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. That's a serious violation right there to blatantly refuse an order by ATC. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. She was far better to him than a lot of NY approach controllers are to good pilots on a good day (and I like NY approach, by the way). Penalties, possibly, but he claesrlrx requested class B and was blown off "Nobody gives a f*. About 45 minutes after the student left my phone rings Caller - this is xx. To do this, they will use the Brasher Notification Phraseology. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. OR he's actually the A that pilot b called him and in that case, break out the cheese grater and throw the AH over your knee. https://onemileatatime.com/atc-audio-negligent-pilot/. Both pilot and atc handled the situation poorly. Secure .gov websites use HTTPS I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? If this pilot had responded to the controllers first comment with, Oh my gosh. Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. IMO he needs to have his ticket pulled for a year minimum. Can A Private Pilot Fly As A Sport Pilot. Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldnt have a license. He should have declared an emergency when denied entry into Bravo. She then states (in so many words) that she didn't clear him and she's the only one that can clear him. N731NR: "Vegas Approach, Centurion 731NR with you descending through 5700'"LAS: "1NR, Las Vegas Approach, Las Vegas altimeter, 29.88. For those that don't want to read. LAS: "You have to have a Bravo clearance. This leads me to believe that a medical problem or hypoxia or something like that might (emphasis, _might__) have been a factor. saturn in ardra nakshatra pada 2 n731nr pilot deviation. Or the one over "Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? https://cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2020/09/15/FLM1_Phone_Call_N731NR_-_Redacted.wav. The problem is with dangerous attitude. Always good to receive a reminder that your pilot may be a nut case and we can just hope we never find out if s/he is or not. Keep up the anti-mask bs. entering airspace without authorization). Privacy Policy. The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. If N1NR had requested clearance, ATC would have responded with clearance or denial and N1NR would have to confirm what was said. Answer (1 of 8): Forgive me, but I have a tendency to twist ambiguous questions like this. It should be a few hundred. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. Then you are free to call the tower on the landline when you land and find out why you were denied clearance or complain about poor services. If you are in trouble for pilot deviation, the results could be very bad. Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. Avoiding Pilot Deviations.pdf (1016.81 KB) Pilot deviations can occur in several different ways. I don't care where people get frustrated. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. The magic words that should raise the hairs on the back of your neck are "possible pilot deviation." It goes without saying that you should remain vigilant as you fly around the national. This may come as a shock to you, but us general aviation Cesena (sic) clowns have as much right to use the airspace as any commercial operation. Please refer to the above referenced number on all future correspondence regarding this request. Instructions on distribution of Cut off a commercial airline at the beginning of his short final resulting in a missed approach and go round for him. 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. This pilot should have been arrested and given a breathalyzer upon landing. This guy is a real threat to himself and others. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy." . As well as this, any pilot in command that deviates from an ATC clearance in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory should notify the ATC of the deviation as soon as possible. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. That's the whole point of talking to you.". Otherwise he'll have his license yanked in *very* short order. None of my students have gotten one either. (Identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number). Happens every day, but not usually with the drama that this knucklehead exhibited A few weeks ago a commercial pilot blew through the O'hare Bravo - ATC kept trying to gently help him by repeating the local altimeter reading thinking he might check his altitude by the 3rd time he offered it, but eventually just had to notify the errant pilot and provide him with a phone # to call. Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into Class Bravo airspace has to do with "anti-mask BS". The Ultimate Guide On How To Become An Airline Pilot. MuckRock is a non-profit collaborative news site that gives you the tools to keep our government transparent and accountable. The call taker should stick to the facts and avoid all emotionality, etc. This was a blatant disregard of regulations after being told to exit the Class B. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. Second in a high traffic area like near an airport multiple pilots can be on the same channel, it is a way to identify the pilot speaking as one pilot may sound like another. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. The Registry will be issuing revised certificates in batches based on the former expiration date. Time for this jerk to buy a ticket on Southwest and shut up. He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately"N731NR (whining): "I've been talking to you the whole time. Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. When other pilots are straight up calling you an asshole on frequency, and nobody but you is concerned by it, YOU fucked up. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. They have your lives in their hands. Always IFR but I still remember feeling like a pain in the ass for asking for VFR service from a controller having a bad day. The best way to ensure that you do not get in any trouble is to stay vigilant, follow the rules, and file a report if you know that an error has occurred on your behalf. For purposes of these compilations, a regulated aviation entity holds a certificate issued by the FAA, (e.g., air carrier operating certificate, repair station certificate, pilot school certificate, airport operating certificate) or is a foreign air carrier or other aviation entity regulated under Part 129 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, 14 CFR Part 129. This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY will fly next to a cessna and then hold up a sign (that conveniently they stashed in the cockpit) and write on it with a magic marker. Almost would have met you that day but water saved me. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. If you are on an IFR flight and told to maintain a certain altitude, deviating from that altitude beyond tolerances set by the regs qualifies as pilot deviation. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, Cleared into Brovo. This is a willful/intentional violation of FAR and ATC instructions. (i.e. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. He did request a clearance. We want to do our jobs admirably and we want to make pilots happy. Student then bought a old Grumen Float plane thinking he would used it to fly back and forth to his lake home. It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). Did anyone ever find out what happened to this pilot? Doxing is not right. I'm without reason or belief to know why you lack the ability to be surprised. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. 1) Probably not hypoxia. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. An entitled pilot enters restricted airspace and argues with air traffic control when told to leave.It appears to be a normal day June 20, 2020 at Las Vegas Air Traffic Control (ATC) when an air traffic controller directing planes notices a small Cessna in Bravo airspace that was not cleared to be there. E He did not declare a fuel emergency, so go east over Lake Meade, or go west over Red Rocks and stay out of B and get to HND without any issues. However, the penalties for pilot deviation can be quite severe, which is something that you should be aware of. When the controller said he was Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. "This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions." I'm not at liberty to discuss the matter further, but the safety of passengers and crew are paramount. He responds that he's been "talking to her the whole time." You might get hypoxic if you fly right over Class B at 10000 or above. But I'd recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. As promised, the final portion of the FOIA response concerning N731NR (the guy who busted Las Vegas class B). At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. In fact, I encourage that. Not a cool move on his part. He flew straight to KHND like he owned the sky. Good luck. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. When Can You Deviate From an ATC Clearance? Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? Just to offer a slightly different perspective on all of this, I am wondering if there's a medical issue here, in which some sympathy might be warranted. Please send comments to the following: http://av-info.faa.gov/feedback, Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing). The tower controller likely For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller: The pilots is always in command, not the controller. This guy has absolutely no business being in command of an automobile, much less an aircraft in class B airspace. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. The first is to signal that the pilot is done speaking especially. Pilot: Ive asked for clearance multiple times.ATC: N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo.ATC: N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. Thank one every time you get where you're going. Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. Especially for psychological problems, and probably especially if something's making you hypoxic below 6000 feet. For specific information, you may request a copy of . Anyone flying under VFR (Visual . You have to request a Bravo clearance. Sort it out on the ground, or declare an emergency: pilot is an ass. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not forthemselves, and under a just God, cannot long retain it. In the next couple of weeks this is what he can expect: 1 Phone call with FAA to get pilots side of the story. If the worst were to happen, people could lose their lives due to pilot deviation, which is not something that anyone wants to have on their conscience. I hope that this finds you well and safe, We apologize for the delay in response. He was wrong in what he did but I had to voice this opinion. often don't recognize their own issue. Ill give you the number when youre ready to copy.Pilot: Im not ready to copy. 866.835.5322 (866-TELL-FAA)Contact Us, United States Department of Transportation, Aviation Safety Draft Documents Open for Comment, Airport Coronavirus Response Grant Program, Legislation & Policies, Regulations & Guidance, Certificated Remote Pilots including Commercial Operators, Recreational Flyers & Modeler Community-Based Organizations, Archived Quarterly Enforcement Reports (These reports date back to the first quarter of 1997. The guy should be investigated and suspended until taught both manners and flying law. Not buying the sick daughter excuse. Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where they're apparently allergic to rules. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. Most were very professional and cooperative but there are always the few that made things difficult. There is zero excuse for wasting ATC's time in a Class B in this age of airliners everywhere. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's Karen: However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. I dont know what will fix that. First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk. How hard would it be to just clear him through? Me - knowing said student thought oh ##@@. > Nobody gives a f*. Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. Turns out he's a slumlord, "supplement" pill pusher, and owns a "wealth generation" company. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. Is there any way you can vector me through? Sometimes pilots make a mistake and wrongly enter this zone which is deemed a violation. From available ATC communications, it appears this particular pilot either forgot to make the request, or thought he made the request to get permission. What almost everyone here is saying is correct (save for the C who ragged on GA pilots - the kind that most ATPS once were in order to get to where they are today- B!). But Id recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller: When approach calls tower about a deviation, they may or may not give details. Thanks. If this pilot had any sense he would have self reported because his flight recording through the area shows something different than what he thought. Got it in there but lake was too short for lake off. The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. Is there an issue? I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. The FAA should (and probably will) commence an emergency revocation of the pilot's certificate. > Good job on hitting a new high USA! The worst case scenario would not be to lose your certificate. "LAS: "N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo". Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. It is a technical term that means that the pilot in command failed to observe FAA regulations, ATC clearances, or temporary flight restrictions in the conduct of his/her flight. The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia. He should not even be allowed to control his own [emailprotected]. Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys. So to appease the pilot and keep him from rattling off more sob story on frequency, he just smiles and waves. The dude that delivered it to the lake about busted the landing. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. > Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where theyre apparently allergic to rules. This request is not currently in perfected status. Get the stick out of your asses". Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. a responsibility to operate safely and competently within the FARs regardless of the price of your plane. Oh my gosh! Everything is on tape. The craziest part in all of this is that when the pilot later talks to Henderson Tower after landing, the controller says I dont know what happened but from what you say, sorry for the service. I guess he was trying to be professional, but this is one of those cases where he was being too nice, given that the pilot was just about 100% in the wrong, while the controller was just about 100% in the right. I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. Please inform me prior to conducting any service demanding fees.I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not. All I do is shake my head and smile. That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do. Share sensitive information only on official, secure websites. Single and Multi engine with Instrument privileges. ATC either turns him around or gives him a better heading. The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying. When Can I Apply For Student Pilot Certificate? The requirements for us to enter Bravo airspace are spelled out with extreme clarity in the FARs; this one dickhead decided to ignore those requirements. Maybe follow-up later with a phone call to make sure they knew it was entirely unintentional, you immediately corrected the error, and that safety is paramount. To break down the exchange, the air traffic controller orders the aircraft to leave the Bravo airspace and pilot whines and refuses because he's already in the airspace. Controllers can order pilots to leave airspace for many reasons but the pilot is refusing to follow the order. The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. All I do is shake my head and smile. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? "Abraham Lincoln, letter to H.L. And, when pilot deviation notification procedures were first added to the ATC manual in 1995, the procedure and phraseology were substantially similar to the pertinent provisions of Notice twitter.com/journo_anon Public Records Requester. Most aircraft are owned by a business, a corporation, a leasing company, or someone who rents their aircraft out. The controller continues to direct other traffic including warning other planes in the area that N1NR is there and approximately where it is so that they do not collide with it as it has still not left Bravo. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. I assume the ATC reports him to the FAA and the FAA investigates? The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. Hundreds could have died. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy. Again, not a good decision. I'm flying." In aviation terms regarding "pilot deviation", the controller is telling the pilot that he is being reported, and there will be an investigation by the FAA. WWFeldman Pre-takeoff checklist Joined: Nov 11, 2019 Messages: 107 Display name: WWFeldman I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. Flightaware shows he flew in from denver at 16300' level the whole way. Laws don't matter anymore. He did not damage anybody. Student - he did get his private after 3 more months of practice. Unfortunately we are unable to move forward with your request until we have a name. The Federal Aviation Administration publishes quarterly a compilation of enforcement actions against regulated aviation entities that are closed with either a civil penalty or issuance of a certificate suspension or revocation.
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